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NITAAI-Veda.nyf > Spiritual Questions & Answers > Pre-2007 QnA Swami Gaurangapada > Spiritual world and jiva questions

Title: Spiritual world and jiva questions

User: MarijaDate: 2006-04-22 08:52:46

 

First of all I would like to offer my respects to Gaurangapada Maharaja and all assembled devotees here. My husband Igor inspired me to join this forum. I am hoping that I will take advantage of this sanga properly, and that I will be able to clarify some doubts and get answers to some questions that are very important for me.

 

I would like to ask several questions, because I would really like to know right answer. Different devotees gave me different answers about that subject. There was several polemics about that. I am hoping that you will have some time to answer to this inquiry.

1. Did we had been in spiritual world and did we felt down in this material world

2. or we never been there ( some devotees are saying) thatwe emanated from Karonadakasayi Vishnu and got free will to choose Ė where we want to be in material or spiritual world?

†††† If we felt down from spiritual world, how it is possible that we on such perfect place were unperfected, that we desired to leave that place? How it is possible when we are on that place full of bliss, knowledge and happiness, especially full of knowledge, so we should know how it looks like to live in material world!

††† If second argument is true, that we never had been in spiritual world, so how we can understand that we have eternal relationship, rasa with Supreme Lord, if we had never been there? It is said that when person is pure enough by practicing this process Ė eternal identity (rasa) will be reveled. How it is possible if we did not have that relation with Supreme Lord? I do not understand that.

3. There are various verses that are talking about nitya-siddha and nitya-bandha souls. Does it mean that nittya-bandha or eternally conditioned souls will never become liberated from illusion? Why God desired to create eternally conditioned souls? He have so much problems with us, he will surely be more happy if there will be only nitya-siddhas. Or he wished to have some more fun Ė lila, maybe because he can perform his fighting lilas and childhood pastimes only in material world. I heard from devotees that such lilas are not existing in spiritual world, or something else is answer.

Sorry if I asked too many questions, but I really need to know right answer†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††† Marija

 

Title: Re: Spiritual world and jiva questions

User: Swami Gaurangapada Date: 2006-04-23 16:40:20

 

Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krishna! Welcome to the forum Marija and thanks for your questions. Your questions are also nice just like your husband Igor. Please give me a day or two to reply to them. Thankyou.

 

Title: Re: Spiritual world and jiva questions

User: MarijaDate: 2006-04-24 12:11:02

 

Dear Gaurangapada Maharaja, thank you very much. I suppose that you are very busy and therefore I really appreciate that you will find some time to answer to my questions.

I am very happy because I will get answers from you, at any time.

 

Title: Re: Spiritual world and jiva questions

User: Swami Gaurangapada Date: 2006-05-14 05:51:59

 

Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krishna! I am really sorry for the belated reply. But here it is...

 

1. Did we had been in spiritual world and did we fell down in this material world.

The soul fell down in this material world from the tatastha shakti or the region of marginal energy between the material and spiritual world which is also known as the brahmajyoti or the light produced by the divine bodily effulgence of the Lord. Technically according to Jaiva Dharma, the marginal energy is also a part of the spiritual world which is comprises of Goloka, Vaikuntha and the Brahmajyoti. So in that way the soul can be said to fall down from the spiritual world. But it is to be understood that such a soul was never engaged in direct service to the Lord in any spiritual planets in the spiritual world.

 

2.or we never been there ( some devotees are saying) thatwe emanated from Karonadakasayi Vishnu and got free will to choose – where we want to be in material or spiritual world?

Yes, the soul in the marginal line originally had the option to choose to go permanently to the eternal spiritual world and serve the Lord in the spiritual planets or to come down in this material world to try to Lord is over material nature. But the ill-fated soul misused the minute independence and chose the latter which is full of untold suffering. There are some souls in the marginal line who do not misuse their independece and choose to directly go to the spiritual world. Such souls do not fall down in this material world but ascend to the spiritual planets. In fact even after falling down, the Lord gives every soul birth in Brahmaloka first, which is the highest planet in this material creation, in order to give the soul the chance to go the spiritual world even after falling down. But the soul is so bent upon misusing the independence that the soul descends lower and lower into the 8.4 million bodily species of life.

 

If we felt down from spiritual world, how it is possible that we on such perfect place were unperfected, that we desired to leave that place? How it is possible when we are on that place full of bliss, knowledge and happiness, especially full of knowledge, so we should know how it looks like to live in material world!

As I said above, the soul was never in any spiritual planet in the direct service of the Lord. As Lord Krishna states in the Gita...yad gatva na nivartante tad dhaam paramam mama...after entering the spiritual planets full of bliss, knowledge and happiness, no soul ever comes back to this material world. The soul can only fall down from the brahmajyoti or the marginal line between the material and spiritual worlds.

 

If second argument is true, that we never had been in spiritual world, so how we can understand that we have eternal relationship, rasa with Supreme Lord, if we had never been there? It is said that when person is pure enough by practicing this process – eternal identity (rasa) will be reveled. How it is possible if we did not have that relation with Supreme Lord? I do not understand that.

This is known as sambandha gyana. The eternal constitutional relationship of the soul with the Lord is fixed and dormant in the soul in the marginal line. According to Jaiva Dharma, the soul had sambandha gyana i.e. knowledge about one's eternal relation with God, in the marginal line but even then the soul got bewildered by the glittering material energy and chose to fall down into Mahamaya due to the soul's minute infinitesimal nature. But there was no abhidheya in the marginal line i.e. the soul had never directly served the Lord in the spiritual planets in the soul's rasa. So the dormant rasa is always there in the soul but the soul has never acted on that platform. They are two different things: to possess the eternal rasa with the Lord and to act on that rasa in the spiritual planets. It is quite easy to understand. Can you understand now? Let me know if it is still not clear and I will explain further.

 

3. There are various verses that are talking about nitya-siddha and nitya-bandha souls. Does it mean that nitya-bandha or eternally conditioned souls will never become liberated from illusion?

No. The word nitya meaning eternal is used in the word nitya-baddha just to explain that the conditioned souls in this material world are conditioned from time immemorial in the past i.e. a very very long time. It does not mean that the soul will have to compulsorily remain conditioned eternally in the future also. The nitya-baddha souls can surely practice Naam Bhajana and become sadhana-siddha and become liberated from illusion forever and enter the spiritual planets where there is no birth, old age, disease and death.

 

Why God desired to create eternally conditioned souls? He have so much problems with us, he will surely be more happy if there will be only nitya-siddhas.

Why the Lord manifested the eternal conditioned souls in the marginal line between the spiritual and material world is the independent desire of the Lord. He is svaraat, supremely independent and unlimited and free to do whatever He wants. It is impossible to find a logical reason for all His transcendental activities. As per Jaiva Dharma, the Lord manifested in three ways..the kayavyuha expansions or nitya-siddha associates in Goloka, the eternal nitya-siddha associates in the Vaikuntha planets and us the marginal souls in the border-line between the material and spiritual worlds. So why He did manifest in these three ways is due to His independent desire.

 

Or he wished to have some more fun – lila, maybe because he can perform his fighting lilas and childhood pastimes only in material world. I heard from devotees that such lilas are not existing in spiritual world, or something else is answer.

It is the true that the childhood pastimes of the Lord and the pastimes of fighting and killing the demons are not manifested in the spiritual world. But that is not the reason for the Lord to manifest the conditioned souls and the material world. The only reason is just His independent desire.

 

Please write if something is not clear.

 

Title: Re: Spiritual world and jiva questions

User: MarijaDate: 2006-05-16 22:46:39

 

Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krishna! Thank you very much on wonderful and illuminate answers.Now I understand that every living entity have eternal relation with Supreme Lord, in terms that we have theoretical knowledge about that, but practically we did not realized that yet.( nitya baddha ). All points are now clear to me. I am happy that I got such answers.

Marija

 

Title: Re: Spiritual world and jiva questions

User: Swami Gaurangapada Date: 2006-05-17 05:56:17

 

Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krishna! Thanks for your questions Marija. I wanted to address this question for a long time. My answers are based on Jaiva Dharma. I will post the relevant Bengali from Jaiva Dharma and translate it into English when I reach back to Puri Dhaam so that the answer is complete.

 

Title: Re: Spiritual world and jiva questions

User: Unregistered†† Date: 2006-07-21 12:08:26

 

This is known as sambandha gyana. The eternal constitutional relationship of the soul with the Lord is fixed and dormant in the soul in the marginal line. According to Jaiva Dharma, the soul had sambandha gyana i.e. knowledge about one's eternal relation with God, in the marginal line but even then the soul got bewildered by the glittering material energy and chose to fall down into Mahamaya due to the soul's minute infinitesimal nature.

 

Q. Please give some scriptural proof regarding this statement. It is only when the baddha jiva receives sambandha jnana from guru parampara that it the opportunity to become a mukta jiva.

 

Title: Re: Spiritual world and jiva questions

User: Swami Gaurangapada Date: 2006-07-21 13:01:08

 

This is known as sambandha gyana. The eternal constitutional relationship of the soul with the Lord is fixed and dormant in the soul in the marginal line. According to Jaiva Dharma, the soul had sambandha gyana i.e. knowledge about one's eternal relation with God, in the marginal line but even then the soul got bewildered by the glittering material energy and chose to fall down into Mahamaya due to the soul's minute infinitesimal nature.

Q. Please give some scriptural proof regarding this statement. It is only when the baddha jiva receives sambandha jnana from guru parampara that it the opportunity to become a mukta jiva.

 

Answer by Swami Gaurangapada:

 

Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krishna! Here I was speaking of the seed (bija) of sambandha gyana not the fully blossomed sambandha gyana given by the Guru which instantly leads to abhidheya or direct service of the Lord.

 

Seventh Goswami Shrila Saccidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes in Jaiva Dhama how Babaji Maharaja explains to Vrajanath this point in Chapter 15:

 

krishnera nitya dasa jiva SVIYA SVARUPA BHULIYA giya maya baddha haiyaachena, ekata sakala vaishnavei baliya thakena.

 

"The soul forgets the own eternal svarupa (constitutional position) of being the eternal servant of Lord Krishna and thus gets bound by the illusory energy of the Lord (Maya or Achit Shakti). Originally every soul is a Vaishnava."

 

Commentary:

 

Please note that it is said "bhuliya" means the soul forgets the knowledge about one's svarupa when it gets conditioned in Maya. If the soul was always completely forgetful of the knowledge of one's svarupa in the tatastha line, then the word bhuliya would not have been used.

 

This means that the soul does have some remembrance (need not be full remembrance) of the svarupa (constitutional position) even in the tatashta (marginal) line as the soul is initially not under the control of Maya in the marginal line between the spiritual and material world. But when the soul misuses the minute independence and wrongly chooses (desires) to go to the material world, the soul forgets it's own consitutional position and becomes bound by Maya. Thus it can be concluded that the bija (or seed) of sambandha gyana is there in the soul in the marginal line.

 

As described in Hari Naam Chintamani, the Guru by giving Naam and proper instructions, awakens that dormant seed of sambandha gyaana which is always present in the soul and helps the sambandha gyaan (knowledge of the soul's relationship with the Lord) to blossom fully into abhideya and prayojana. That is why it is said that the disciple receives sambandha from his or her Guru. This does not mean that sambandha is something which is totally external to the soul. The seed of sambandha is always there in the soul which is core of it's existence. Without it the soul would not exist.

 

This is also confirmed by the famous verse in Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita:

 

NITYA SIDDHA krishna prema sadhya kabhu naya

shravanaadi shuddha chitta kariye UDAYA

 

"The pure love of Lord Krishna which is nitya-siddha i.e. eternally perfect cannot be attained by any forcible or mechanical means. Simply by engaging in hearing, chanting etc. of the glories of the Lord, the heart and consciousness is purified and it awakens automatically."

 

Commentary:

 

Udaya means awakens. And awakening means that is was lying dormant. An absent thing cannot awaken. A present but dormant thing can awaken. It means the Krishna prema or Krishna consciousness is not something totally new to the soul like Shrila Prabhupada used to explain many times but it is in a dormant stage due to our conditioning and needs to be awakened by chanting and hearing from the Guru and the Vaishnavas.

 

There are many more statements in Jaiva Dharma in this regard but I will post them at the later time. Thankyou.