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Title: Homosexuality rejected by Bhagavat, Mahabharat, Prabhupada
User: Swami Gaurangapada Date: 2007-04-21 23:24:40
Shrimad Bhagavatam 3.20.26:
pahi mam paramatmams te
ta ima yabhitum papa
upakramanti mam prabho
TRANSLATION By Shrila Prabhupada:
"Lord Brahma, approaching the Lord, addressed Him thus: My Lord, please protect me from these sinful demons, who were created by me under Your order. They are infuriated by an appetite for sex and have come to attack me."
It appears here that the homosexual appetite of males for each other is created in this episode of the creation of the demons by Brahma. In other words, the homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life.
"Foolish and sinful men engage in all forms of sexual intercourse without a female womb, forcing themselves upon other men. They are born again without their organs as neuters." (Mahabharata 13.145.52)
Prabhupada: The world is degrading to the lowest status, even less than animal. The animal also do not support homosex. They have never sex life between male to male. They are less than animal. People are becoming less than animal. This is all due to godlessness. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna , godless civilization cannot have any good qualities. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna mano rathena asato dhavato. They simply go to the untruth by mental speculation. (Shrila Prabhupada in Conversation with the GBC ?Los Angeles, May 25, 1972.)
Prabhupada: Homosex. They are supporting homosex. So degraded, and still they say, "What we have done?" They do not know what is degradation, and they are priest. They are teaching others. They do not know what is the meaning of degradation. (Shrila Prabhupada in Morning Walk Conversation ?Los Angeles, September 28, 1972)
Prabhupada: So generally, people are suffering on account of association with tamo-guna and rajo-guna, whole material world, mostly tamo-guna and few of them in rajo-guna. The symptoms of rajo-guna and tamo-guna are lust and greediness. Just like yesterday you told me the students are talking about homosex. That means tamo-guna, that the education students, they are discussing about homosex...
That means they are making their own lusty desires fulfilled in the name of Bible, that抯 all. Everyone is doing like that. They are changing. Mass opinion is now homosex. They are passing abortion. They are passing?What is this? This is their business. For fulfillment of their lusty desires and greediness, they are bringing the authority of Bible, Bhagavad-gita. This is going on in the name of religion. (Shrila Prabhupada in Morning Walk ?May 11, 1975, Perth)
Prabhupada: This homosex propaganda is another side of impotency. So that is natural. If you enjoy too much, then you become impotent.
Brahmananda: They are trying to make that more and more accepted in America, homosex.
Prabhupada: Yes. The churches accept. It is already law.
Nitai: This women抯 liberation movement, the leaders are also homosexual. They抮e lesbians.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Just see. Hare Krsna. The whole world is on the verge of ruination. Kali-yuga.
(Shrila Prabhupada in Morning Walk ?September 6, 1975, Vrndavana)
Tamala Krsna: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.
Prabhupada: Just see. Is that religion? (Shrila Prabhupada in Room Conversation ?January 8, 1976, Nellore)
My Dear Lalitananda dasa,
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated May 13rd, 1975 and have noted the contents. I am very sorry that you have taken to homosex. It will not help you advance in your attempt for spiritual life. In fact, it will only hamper your advancement. I do not know why you have taken to such abominable activities. What can I say? Anyway, try to render whatever service you can to Krishna. Even though you are in a very degraded condition Krishna, being pleased with your service attitude, can pick you up from your fallen state. You should stop this homosex immediately. It is illicit sex, otherwise, your chances of advancing in spiritual life are nil. Show Krishna you are serious, if you are.
I hope this meets you in good health.
Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
(Shrila Prabhupada Letter from Hawaii, 26 May, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada: Watchtower. It has criticized that one priest has allowed a marriage between two men-homosexuality. So these things are all going on. They take it purely for prostitution, that's all. So therefore people are thinking, "What is the use of keeping a regular prostitute at such heavy expenditure? Better not to have this." (Shrila Prabhupada in Perfect Questions Perfect Answers)
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, but example is better than precept. If even one percent of the population is trained as ideal men, the other ninety-nine percent will see and follow. But that example is lacking in society today. Even the priests have become licentious, and thousands of priests are going to the hospital to cure their drinking habit. They are sanctioning homosexuality. In a Christian newspaper I read about a priest even performing marriage between two men. So outside of this Krsna consciousness movement, I don't find any group of ideal men. Therefore, if you want to help society, you must learn from us how to train men of ideal character. (Shrila Prabhupada to a social worker took place in Melbourne, Australia).
Shrila Prabhupada: What's more, some priests are advocating homosex. So in modern society, where are the ideal-character men? If even the priestly class are going to the sanitarium for their drinking habit and they are allowing man-to-man marriage and homosex, then where is the class exemplifying ideal character?
Director: But homosexuality is a sickness. It's an illness. It's just like a person who can't see-you wouldn't punish him for not seeing. You can't punish a person for being homosexual. That's what our society says.
Srila Prabhupada: Well, anyway, the priestly class are sanctioning homosex.
Srila Prabhupada: Sanctioning. They are condoning homosex. And there was a newspaper report that a man and another man were actually married by a priest. Just imagine-a priest performing a man-to-man marriage. And some priests are even advocating the passage of a resolution that homosex is all right. And my disciples tell me that in Perth, university teachers are discussing homosex with their students, in favor of homosex. So where is the group with ideal character? If you want some tangible improvement in society, train some people to have ideal character. That is the purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement. (Shrila Prabhupada to and Australia's director of research for the Department of Social Welfare at the Melbourne ISKCON center on May 21, 1975.)
Ramesvara: They have reported that he is a homosexual.
Prabhupada: Just see. Now, who cares for all these nonsense?
(Shrila Prabhupada in Conversation in train to Allahabad, Jan 11, 1977)
Title: Re: How to give up homosexuality
User: Swami Gaurangapada Date: 2007-04-21 23:40:10
We should not think of a person, especially a devotee, as a homosexual. We should not say, "So-and-so dasa is a homosexual." He is actually a person, a spirit soul. No one is an alcoholic or a psychotic or any other such designation. The con璬itioned soul may have certain tendencies, in璫luding a tendency for homosexuality, but by constitutional nature we are all eternal servants of the Lord, pure and blissful.When I was a teenager, the first book I ever read about homosexuality described it as a disease. The psychiatrist told how he cured his patients of their homosexual tendency. This view might be con璼idered somewhat old-fashioned, since nowadays people more likely accept the premise that they are homosexually oriented and that such an orien璽ation cannot be changed.
Even if we grant the premise that someone is a homosexual, there is still a course of action if he or she wishes to make advancement in spiritual life. Srila Prabhupada was approached a number of times by devotees who told him of this tendency. His response was that the person should be mar璻ied. He never endorsed homosexual activity. He used to repeat, with disgust and criticism, a story he had read that a sect in the Christian church gave sanction to homosexual marriage. And he has written in a purport:
It appears here that the homosexual appetite of males for each other is created in this episode of the creation of the demons by Brahma. In other words, the homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life.桞hSg. 3.20.26 purport
Srlla Prabhupada saw homosexual tendencies as excessive and perverted lust. The legitimate cor璻ection for lust is self-control and purification by religious marriage. If a person of homosexual tendency thinks it is impossible to be married to the opposite sex, then he or she is faced with only one other alternative: celibacy. These are the same two alternatives that Srlla Prabhupada wrote to me in a letter when I had mentioned to him of my sex agitation. He said one can either engage oneself fully in Krsna conscious璶ess, and thus lose all desire for sex, or become religiously married. But no immoral sex. .
A person who has been an active homosexual or feels that he or she is inherently a homosexual should respond to this by accepting a life of full celibacy. The so-called curse can therefore become a blessing.In order to lead a life of celibacy, such a person may have to make certain adjustments in mixing with persons of the same sex. The same general principle holds: one should not associate intimately with persons with whom one is likely to be sexually attracted. This is true not only of homosexuals but of all celibates. They should avoid genital sex as well as pregenital sexual behavior, and this implies avoiding personal relationships of human affection which are likely to be genitally expressed. (By Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami)
Neither heterosexuality nor homosexuality are "natural." Heterosexual desire is a perverted reflection of our original love for Krsna and homosexuality is another twist. Srila Prabhupada: "The homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane man in the ordinary course of life." (SB 3.20.26)
Due to the influence of Kali-yuga, homosexuality is now a common problem. As Kali-yuga advances we will have to accommodate more and more people with past perverse lives and give them the opportunity for purification. If homosexuals sincerely come to Krsna consciousness, what advice should we give them?
In the Vedic culture, heterosexual desires can be accommodated within the grhastha-asrama, but there is no scope for accommodating homosexual desires. Srila Prabhupada recommended marriage (to a woman!) for a disciple with homosexual desires. This advice may not seem very practical, for the homosexual's attraction is to men rather than women. But homosexual or heterosexual, the disease is lust. Homosexuality means that the lust has increased to an abnormally high degree. Marriage means to channel that lust in a manner acceptable within the Vedic culture.
Anyway, homosexuals coming to Krsna consciousness will need special guidance from senior devotees. The homosexual must be understood as an individual person and be given proper facility after frank discussion. He should understand his condition to be especially fallen, but should be confident that by Krsna consciousness, all difficulties can be overcome. And other devotees should be sympathetic and understanding with such sincere souls. We must be compassionate, but we cannot sacrifice our standards of purity. (By Bhakti Vikasa Swami)
1) Yes, both homosexual and heterosexual desires are a perversion of the souls original love for Krishna.
2) With subtle sexuality I referred to psychological exchanges motivated by conscious and/or subconcious sex desire. Both heterosexual and homosexual desires are perversions of the souls original love for God, but in the conditioned state the natural flow of the sex impulse is towards the opposite sex. Therefore homosexual desires are a further perversion. One that can抰 be engaged in devotional service.
3) 揟he only actual difference between homosexual acts and heterosexual acts is the fact that sexual intercourse resulting in pregnancy requires a male body and a female body.?For example, the whole mentality of a person suffering the disease of being homosexual influences that persons environment in a negative way, a way that brings no one closer to Krishna. On the other hand the mentality of a heterosexual who engages his or her desires in the service of Krishna can elevate others.
4) In the conditioned state a homosexual person can, via sadhana-bhakti, get his or her perverted sex desire redirected to the natural object in the conditioned stage which is the opposite sex and then from that point engage that desire in the service of Krishna (sex life not contrary to religious scripture) and ultimately totally trancend all sex desires.
5) Homosexuality is a disease and can be cured by sadhana-bhakti. Both the homosexual inclination of a devotee and the sexual desires and impulses (resulting in acts) can be cured by Naam bhajana.
6) The heterosexual disease is not so bad, because it can be engaged in Krishna's service by producing devotee progeny whereas homosexuals disease is a further perversion. A soul conditioned by homosexual desires is, at least when it comes to sex, more degraded than a soul conditioned by heterosexual desires.
7) Sex purely with the purpose of creating Krishna conscious offspring is devotional service. This facility to use sex desire in the Lord's service is not available in homosexuality.
If one claims to be exercising 揷ompassion?without following the Vedic Shastric version of compassion, their conclusions, statements, and actions are erroneous. Worse, they are in themselves an act of violence.
Compassion upon an individual is not displayed by applauding the development of a sinful principle into a lifestyle that is meant to be accepted and admired by the general population to the point where spiritualists and transcendentalists who see such behavior as a symptom of a sinful mentality are considered a 揹anger?to society. I suggest it is this kind of approach that is the real danger. (Ajita Krishna dasa)
Title: Re: Gay Monogamy or Marriage or Rights not accepted
User: Swami Gaurangapada Date: 2007-04-22 00:08:07
By Danavir Goswami
July 7, 2005
nama om visnu-padaya
svamin iti namine
namas te sarasvate deve
namas te narasimhaya
ito nrsimhah parato nrsimho
yato yato yami tato nrsimhah
bahir nrsimho hrdaye nrsimho
nrsimham adim saranam prapadye
All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Whatever meager humility and scanty sincerity of purpose I possess條et it be offered to the assembly of Vaisnavas in an attempt to correctly express the teachings of our beloved spiritual master, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. I beg his forgiveness for entering such a debate, yet we pray to Govinda that we too will be saved in our hour of trial, as was Draupadi.
The views conveyed in this paper are my own, not an official policy statement of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Considering the term "gay monogamy," we will first of all try to clarify the imports of both words individually and then discuss them combined. The word "gay" is primarily defined as: 1) someone who practices homosexuality; or 2) someone having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex. Concerning the second definition, one may, in other words, be attracted in that way but may not indulge in homosexual activity of a physical nature.
This paper will use the first definition of "gay" namely, "a practicing homosexual." Similarly in our reference to homosexuality in general we will also use the same definition. In other words, a homosexual means a practicing homosexual. The reason for this is that a person may have an inclination for so many things but if one does not act on that inclination one cannot be held responsible for the act. This is especially true in Kali-yuga where one is not held responsible for impious deeds done in the mind.
The word "monogamy" has two main imports:
1.) The practice or condition of having a single sexual partner during a period of time.
A. The practice or condition of being married to only one person at a time.
B. The practice of marrying only once in a lifetime.
In recent articles the word "monogamy" has been used variously causing abundant confusion. However, since we are particularly responding to one recent article ("Gay Monogamy"), we will try to maintain a consistent usage for the term "monogamy" in keeping with the usage in that article. That article stated:
"I am not convinced that marriage is the best means in all cases, but some serious, formal, and public recognition and appreciation of gay monogamy is, in my view, in the best interest of ISKCON and its members."
The statement uses the word "monogamy" ambivalently toward marriage between homosexuals. Thus both definitions 2A and 2B above must be eliminated. That leaves us with definition 1: "Monogamy梩he practice or condition of having a single sexual partner during a period of time."
"Gay monogamy" then, combining the two accepted definitions would portray:
"The practice or condition of having a single homosexual partner during a period of time."
The paper adds the word "monogamy" to the word "gay" intending to distinguish it from ordinary gay behavior, which may be of a "promiscuous" nature. "Promiscuous" is defined as: "casual and unrestrained in sexual behavior梟ot restricted to an individual."
In other words, ordinary gay behavior indicates the possibility of "homosexual activity with more than one partner," during a period of time whereas "monogamous" homosexual behavior is limited to one partner during some period of time.
In the article under discussion the term "gay monogamy" is used to argue that homosexuality with a single partner is of a superior quality compared to ordinary homosexual behavior. The redeeming word "monogamy" is intended to elevate ordinary gay behavior up to a level of respectability or acceptable morality. If that were not the case, why would the term "monogamy" be needed at all? Thus the meaning of "gay monogamy" carries contradictory nuances of homosexual morality, which, at least to my mind, is as absurd as introducing the expression "chaste harlots."
Criterion of Discussion
The aim of discussion within a Vaisnava forum is to present Krishna conscious views, not simply to put forth what is normally accepted by society. For example, slaughtering cows and eating them is a normal, accepted, and completely legal practice in society at large. Members of the Krishna consciousness movement recognize citizens' statutory rights to indulge in such activity, yet devotees of Lord Krishna do not accept this practice as proper. Devotees argue that although society or the state allows such behavior and declares it "legal" it is in fact not approved by the Supreme state authority of God or Krishna. Vaisnavas consider cow killing demoniac despite the "legal" tag sewn on it.
Similarly, ISKCON will recognize the statutory rights of individuals to have common-law or legalized homosexual relationships (as authorized by state law); however, it cannot condone such arrangements since they are contrary to scripture.
What is the criterion for something to be considered Krishna conscious?
Sadhu-sastra-guru梐ll spiritual matters should be tested according to the instructions of saintly persons, scriptures and the spiritual master.
The chief saintly person Narada Muni explained, "All the rules and regulations apply equally to the householder and the sannyasi, the member of the renounced order of life. The grhastha, however, is given permission by the spiritual master to indulge in sex during the period favorable for procreation."
Marriage, as far as I understand from reading Srila Prabhupada's books, is meant to be a sacred event (samskara) for helping the husband and wife advance in spiritual progress and to provide a proper environment for reproduction. It is called vivaha yajna. This is corroborated in "On the Way to Krishna," Chapter 3, as follows: "In religious and civilized societies, marriage is intended as an indication that a couple is to engage in sex for begetting good children. Therefore married sex life is considered religious, and unmarried sex life is considered irreligious."
Among all scriptures, Srimad Bhagavatam is the chief. There we find: "Lord Brahma, approaching the Lord, addressed Him thus: My Lord, please protect me from these sinful demons, who were created by me under Your order. They are infuriated by an appetite for sex and have come to attack me."
Purport: "It appears here that the homosexual appetite of males for each other is created in this episode of the creation of the demons by Brahma. In other words, the homosexual appetite of a man for another man is demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life." (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.20.26 and Purport)
The proposal of "Gay Monogamy" ignores authorized Vedic text and therefore is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society.
In the "Gay Monogamy" article the word "varnasrama" was used several times although within the authorized varnasrama system there is no "gay monogamy" mentioned or allowed.
"There are eight forms of marriage mentioned in the scripture Manu-smrti, but only one process of marriage, brahma or rajasika marriage, is now current. Other kinds of marriage梑y love, by exchange of garlands or by kidnapping the bride梐re now forbidden in this Kali age." (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.22.16 Purport)
"Gay monogamy" cannot be recognized as sex indulgence for bonafide grhasthas, i.e. those who have undergone the sacred marriage vows, intending to procreate according to religious principles. Sadhus only recommend sex indulgence within proper marriage and then only for procreation.
Analyzing "gay monogamy" from sastra, both para (transcendental) and apara (mundane) aspects, we find that homosexuality is condemned broadly, whether it is performed with many partners or with one. Scripture does not support gayness in any manner, whether it is ordinary or monogamous, wanton or socially correct. Homosexuality is not a legitimate combination for marriage. Sex outside of marriage is not allowed and none of the eight forms of marriage include gay monogamy; therefore it does not lie within the varnasrama system. Consequently gay monogamy does not qualify by either level of the Vedas or other scriptures such as the Bible. One should not manufacture a type of marriage that is based on illicit sex only. The proposal for gay marriage is such a concoction.
Encouraging Gay Persons in Krishna Consciousness
A gay person wishing to advance in Krishna consciousness should engage in favorable activities according to the scriptures and according to his/her level of understanding. Assuming such a person is still attached to engaging in illicit sex, then he should have hope that by chanting, hearing, serving, praying, worshiping, and remembering in relationship with Sri Krishna, eventually he will become freed from that habit. Until then, he may live as he chooses, either with a friend or alone, whatever is more conducive for service to Krishna.
If by Krishna's and guru's grace, the candidate advances on the path of bhakti, he will realize the futility of homosexuality and give it up entirely. Coming to this wonderful understanding, the former gay devotee may continue to live with his/her friend as a Godbrother or Godsister without physical contact or else he may totally change residential situations. If one chooses to give up homosexuality but not sexuality altogether, he may utilize the grhastha asrama as it is meant to be used, as a responsible householder. And yes, there are sufficient successful examples of this within our movement.
One who is interested in making spiritual progress should understand that homosexuality should be abandoned ASAP so that one's spiritual progress will not be blocked. If one wants something cheap, there are many so-called gurus and spiritual societies that will happily cheat the students by offering them the moon for money, but all that glitters is not gold.
There is no need, nor sanction, for devotionally inclined persons to invent or have invented on their behalf, an artificial spousal complement program for gays or monogamous gays. That will create utpatayaiva (disturbance) in society. Indulging in illicit sex with one person as opposed to several is not the saving grace; rather the actual saving grace is the extent to which a person sincerely engages in devotional activities. They must be humble, admitting to themselves their weakness and utilizing their full energy to improve. Gay persons are welcome to visit and participate in ISKCON centers and surely Krishna will help them if they are sincere.
In my thirty-five years of devotional service I have personally helped to engage hundreds of gay persons directly in the process of Krishna consciousness. In many cases, they have demonstrated exceptional success. I continue to help them today.
Not To Be Uttered
Next is a series of excerpts spoken by His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada followed by my comments.
"A person on religious category, he's advocating something, oh, it is not to be uttered. Homosex. You see? He's advocating homosex. Just see." (Sunday Feast Lecture by Srila Prabhupada桳os Angeles, May 21, 1972)
Comment: ISKCON's founder-acarya, Srila Prabhupada, has commented explicitly on the practice of homosexuality, which presumably has not changed significantly in the past twenty-seven years. It would behoove ISKCON members to familiarize themselves with his opinion.
"The sense gratification, homosex, they are supporting. Just see. Just see. At least, in animal society there is no homosex. They have created homosex, and that is being passed by the priest, the religious heads. You know that? Just see. If you say that they are animal civilization, that is a great credit for them. It is less than animal civilization."(Room Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桝ugust 25, 1971, London)
Comment: One of the ten offenses, sometimes referred to as the greatest offense to the chanting of the holy name, is guru-avajna or disobeying the spiritual master. To willfully disregard the guru's expressed opinion on a particular subject is not less than disobeying the orders of the spiritual master or considering him an ordinary man. His Divine Grace saw no place for homosexuality within his movement, nor did he encourage it in any way. Homosexuality does not become valid or legitimate in Vedic terms simply by adding the adjective "monogamous."
"Watchtower. It has criticized, one priest has allowed the marriage between man to man, homosex. So these things are going on. They take it purely for prostitution. That's all." (Srila Prabhupada Talks with Bob Cohen桭ebruary 27-29, 1972; Mayapura)
Comment: The "Gay Monogamy" proposal appeals for, "some serious, formal, and public recognition and appreciation of gay monogamy." One may argue that the proposal does not actually advocate homosexuality but rather it only advocates giving recognition to those homosexuals who are willing to marry another homosexual or who are willing to limit their acts of homosexuality with one partner. Since the "Gay Monogamy" proposal approves of gay marriage and gay behavior, it is highly censurable.
"Now the priestly order supporting homosex. I was surprised. They are going to pass resolution for getting married between man to man. The human society has come down to such a degraded position. It is astonishing. When I heard from Kirtanananda Maharaja there is a big conference for passing this resolution. In India still, if there somebody hears about homosex (makes sound of breathing out). Homosex is there but nobody will support publicly. (indistinct) People are going down and this is the subject matter for priestly order? It may be subject matter for the legislator, priestly order, they are discussing for one week. Just imagine. Phalena pariciyate, one has to study by the result. Not that superficially you show that 'We are very much advanced.' Phalena, what is the result? Phalena pariciyate, your, that is in English word also, end justifies the means. The end is this (indistinct) 'We are going to support homosex.' Getting married. There are many cases the priestly order has actually got married. I read it in that paper, Watch, what is called?
"Prabhupada: Watchtower. They have complained (?). So we have nothing to (indistinct) them. The world is degrading to the lowest status, even less than animal. The animal also do not support homosex. They have never sex life between male to male. They are less than animal. People are becoming less than animal. This is all due to godlessness. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna, godless civilization cannot have any good qualities. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna mano rathena asato dhavato. They simply go to the untruth by mental speculation. (Conversation with Srila Prabhupada and the GBC桳os Angeles, May 25, 1972)"
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Comment: An essential point is made here. Homosexuality will go on despite ISKCON's stance; however, Srila Prabhupada praises India as being cultured in that 'nobody will support publicly.' The "Gay Monogamy" proposal not only advocates appreciation for homosexuals who live together but it also recommends gay marriage. The proposal reads: "I am not convinced that marriage is the best means in all cases." In other words the proposal considers marriage between gays as the preferred scheme although it suggests common-law homosexuality as secondary.
"Jayatirtha: Ordained priests, they have left and gone off to marry or whatever. Especially they are concerned that they can't marry. Catholic priests are not allowed to marry.
"Prabhupada: Marrying? They are marrying man to man, what to speak of marrying. Sodomy.
"Jayatirtha: So that's the alternative. Either they're leaving or they're marrying man to man.
"Prabhupada: Homosex. They are supporting homosex. So degraded, and still they say, 'What we have done?' They do not know what is degradation, and they are priest. They are teaching others. They do not know what is the meaning of degradation." (Morning Walk Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桳os Angeles, September 28, 1972)
Comment: When sannyasis and devotees begin discussing the sanctioning of this degraded activity it pollutes the entire society, both within ISKCON and society at large. It is the duty of ISKCON and especially the sannyasis to explain why homosexual activity is degraded and how it must be overcome.
"The dog and cat they are having sex on the open street, and now they are talking of homosex in the school, colleges for education. This is their position. They do not know even what is the standard of human civilization." (Morning Walk Conversation with Srila Prabhupada -- May 11, 1975, Perth)
Comment: Through social acceptance of perverted homosexual activities, society itself is making it so that more and more people are becoming homosexuals. One astute observer has pointed out that most active homosexuals were at one point latent homosexuals who became influenced by environment and the social situation promoting homosexuality. The media is especially guilty of encouraging people who were not homosexuals before to become active homosexuals by propagating the idea that homosexuality is a normal and acceptable occurrence. The "Gay Monogamy" proposal provides unwanted stimulus for people to become or stay homosexuals.
"Yes. This is their philosophy. And as they pass laws in the Parliament, similarly, these churches approve: 'Yes, homosex is all right.' Then it is all right. This cheating system is going on. Similar cheating system is the Hindus also. You'll find in Calcutta, in College Street, so many butcher house. And they have kept one goddess Kali that 'We are eating Mother Kali's prasada.'That's it. This is going on." (Morning Walk Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桝pril 2, 1975, Mayapur)
Comment: The "Gay Monogamy" proposal is guilty of proposing this exact scenario. In essence it says, "Practicing homosexuality is acceptable because the couple is monogamous." In the same way that foolish customers feel better about eating Kali Prasada rather than ordinary flesh, foolish persons think they are in a better position because they have been approved by a "Gay Monogamy" proposal.
"Our difficulty: the so-called swamis, priests, popes, they are also in the pravrtti-marga. All these, priests, and they have illicit sex. Pravrtti-marga. So they are passing, 'Yes, you can have homosex with man.' They are getting man-to-man marriage. You know? They are performing the marriage ceremony between man to man in the open church. What class of men they are? And they are priest. Just see. Such degraded persons." (Morning Walk Conversation with Srila Prabhupada -- May 13, 1975, Perth)
Comment: Priests passing resolutions in favor of homosexual behavior are spiritually exhausted. They should get spiritually reoriented and rejuvenated or retire.
"Prabhupada: They are discussing in the university homosex. They are advanced. Advancement of education. Just see. They are not even fourth-class men; they are animals, producing so many animals, that's all, dogs and hogs. ...in the beginning samah. Samah, damah梖irst two business. Control the sense and keep the mind undisturbed. That is the beginning. Now they are so much sexually disturbed, they're discussing about the profit of homosex. Where is first-class men?
"Amogha: They say that homosex keeps the balance of things because...
"Prabhupada: Yes, fourth-class man can say anything wrong, bad, but we are not going to hear of it. A fourth-class man's philosophy, we will have to waste our time to hear them梩hat's not good. They are not even fourth class; they are animal class. Fourth class has got some position, but they are naradhama, the lowest of the mankind. So what is their philosophy, and who is going to spoil his time to hear about their philosophy?" (Morning Walk Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桵ay 14, 1975, Perth)
Comment: This is the unfortunate reality about associating with and taking education from mundane universities. One becomes contaminated by the professors' and students' low level of consciousness because in universities it is considered appropriate to discuss the merits of showing respect for homosexuality.
"That means they are gliding down towards hell, that's all. Yositam sangi-sangam. Now they are coming to the platform of homosex. This is their advancement, spiritual advancement. Yositam sangi-sangam." (Morning Walk Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桵ay 21, 1975, Melbourne)
Comment: If one disagrees that homosexuals are in illusion, then debates or discussions with hopes of grasping Krishna consciousness are questionable. The "Gay Monogamy" proposal seeks to provide a dignified place for homosexuality within the sphere of ISKCON, otherwise why should such an article be written and posted on the Internet's most ISKCON-oriented site?
"Prabhupada: Priest should be ideal character. And they are advocating homosex. So where is the ideal character men? If the priestly class they are going to hospital for drinking habit, and they are allowing man-to-man marriage and homosex, then where is ideal character?
"Director: But homosexual is a sickness.
"Devotee: He said it's an illness.
"Director: It's an illness. It's just like a person can't see, you would punish him for not seeing. You can't punish a person for being homosexual. That our society says.
"Prabhupada: Well, anyway, the priestly class, sanctioning homosex.
"Prabhupada: Sanctioning. They are allowing homosex. And there was report that man and man was married by the priest. In New York there is a paper, Watchtower. That is a Christian paper. I have seen in that paper. They are condemning it, that priest is allowing man-to-man marriage. And they are passing resolution, homosex is passed, 'All right.' And in Perth you said that the students are discussing about homosex, in favor of homosex. So where is the ideal character? If you want something tangible business, train some people to become ideal character. That is this Krsna consciousness movement." (Room Conversation with Director of Research of the Dept. of Social Welfare桵ay 21, 1975, Melbourne)
Comment: The Krishna consciousness movement cannot condone or appreciate homosexuality in any way, shape or form. It must be condemned. Hate the sin not the sinner. Devotees do not hate homosexuals; however, there must be genuine hate for the sin. The problem with the "Gay Monogamy" proposal is there is insufficient hatred for the sin of homosexuality.
"Brahmananda: They are trying to make that more and more accepted in America, homosex.
"Prabhupada: Yes. The churches accept. It is already law.
"Nitai: This women's liberation movement, the leaders are also homosexual. They're lesbians.
"Prabhupada: (laughs) Just see. Hare Krsna. The whole world is on the verge of ruination. Kali-yuga." (Morning Walk Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桽eptember 6, 1975, Vrndavana)
Comment: When spiritual leaders think that liberality with the sin of homosexuality is compassion they become like an old lady who blows on a boil to cure it. Simply imagination. We do not need inventions like "gay monogamy" to solve problems, rather we need firm adherence to the principles of bhakti yoga as given in the Vedic literature and as taught by Srila Prabhupada. Lord Caitanya's mission is described as vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yoga or the process of renunciation and transcendental knowledge.
"Just see. Rascal priests also so sinful. Yes, they're supporting homosex. So when the priests are sinful, the public is sinful, how the church will go on?" (Morning Walk Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桱une 6, 1976, Los Angeles)
Comment: Srila Prabhupada strongly criticizes priests of commonplace churches for assenting to same-sex marriage, how much more would he denounce ISKCON priests for similar approbation. ISKCON will not be able to go on if such outrageous proposals as "gay monogamy" are upheld. It is a mistake to think that in order to spread Lord Caitanya's movement ISKCON must make allowances for all sorts of nonsense within the organization. The "house that can accommodate the whole world" is not a house where homosexuality is welcomed. It should be left outside the door.
"Nowadays, of course, they are thinking like that, that man should remain independent, and they'll have homosex, and the woman also independent and they will make some... This is most immoral things." (Morning Walk Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桪ecember 10, 1975, Vrndavana)
Comment: The "Gay Monogamy" proposal is trying to give a cloak of decency to the "most immoral things."
"Tamala Krsna: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.
"Prabhupada: Just see. Is that religion?" (Room Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桱anuary 8, 1976, Nellore)
Comment: Religion means dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam, to follow the principles established by the Supreme Lord. The "Gay Monogamy" proposal, in a feeble attempt to help homosexuals, actually encourages apathy towards Krishna's instructions.
"The persons from the ecclesiastical order, they are also so polluted, they are sanctioning homosex, abortion. What can be done for the common man?" (Morning Walk Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桝pril 8, 1976, Mayapur)
Comment: The "Gay Monogamy" proposal also attempts to get an eventual sanction for homosexuality within ISKCON. If ISKCON's ecclesiastical leaders become weak, as in most other religious institutions, then there will be no hope for the common man. It is the duty of ISKCON to firmly condemn homosexual behavior in all aspects.
(After hearing how parents allow their sons to go to homosexual parties Srila Prabhupada commented:) "It is horrible to hear even." (Room Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桱anuary 27, 1977, Puri)
Comment: Srila Prabhupada was so opposed to homosexuality and considered it so sinful that he felt it should not even be heard. In my opinion, to pursue the "Gay Monogamy" proposal is to commit the grave offense of guru-avajna.
"Homosex, what is that religion? And they're passing to homosex, religion. They're getting married man to man. Most degraded." (Room Conversation with Srila Prabhupada桭ebruary 16, 1977, Mayapura)
Comment: The concept that "once a homosexual, always a homosexual" is pure nonsense. One has to get a higher taste by Krishna consciousness and then give up the degraded position. Appreciating monogamous homosexuality is so nonsensical that it is offensive to the Krishna consciousness movement. Even if we are taken to court we should preach about the degradation.
"They are having homosex. They are encouraging homosex, giving man-to-man marriage. You know that? This is going on. Doing everything nonsense." (Conversation with Srila Prabhupada:桝pril 28, 1977, Bombay)
Comment: What is the use of having a big worldwide organization that tacitly approves of homosexual behavior? Maya wants devotees to think that to be progressive and broadminded we must widen our vista of acceptance. The "Gay Monogamy" proposal advocates more open-mindedness yet Srila Prabhupada did not appreciate such thoughts. Certainly persons of homosexual orientation are welcome in ISKCON and the sankirtana movement, but like all other sinful activities such as meat eating, intoxication, and gambling, the vice of illicit sex should be discarded at a pace they feel comfortable with.
"I am very sorry that you have taken to homosex. It will not help you advance in your attempt for spiritual life. In fact, it will only hamper your advancement. I do not know why you have taken to such abominable activities. What can I say? Anyway, try to render whatever service you can to Krishna. Even though you are in a very degraded condition Krishna, being pleased with your service attitude, can pick you up from your fallen state. You should stop this homosex immediately. It is illicit sex, otherwise, your chances of advancing in spiritual life are nil. Show Krishna you are serious, if you are." (Letter from Srila Prabhupada to: Lalitananda桯awaii 26 May, 1975)
Comment: This letter is very instructive. There are two fallacies that exist regarding homosexuality: 1) that one is born homosexual and 2) that no one can change once they become homosexual.
Srila Prabhupada explained earlier that homosexuality "is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life." That means it can be changed because His Divine Grace specifically recommends a change in this letter.
The compassionate spiritual master advises the candidate for spiritual life to immediately give up homosexual behavior. If the student tries to change, he will get strength and mercy from the spiritual master and from Krishna.
"Amogha: In one high school here they asked the question whether we accept homosexuality. And I said, 'Of course not. This is only a perversion.' And they said, 'This is nature's way to stop overpopulation,' because there won't be any children. So much foolish.
"Prabhupada: How degraded the human society is becoming. And the children, they are discussing." (Morning Walk桵ay 9, 1975, Perth)
Comment: Kali-yuga has put forward the "Gay Monogamy" proposal within the society of Vaisnavas. Such things should not be contemplated, nor verbalized, what to speak of advocated on public forums. It is maya's trick to make people believe that such discussions or arrangements will be helpful for becoming Krsna conscious.
"Now they are marrying man to man and accepting homosex, so what is the value now of this priestly class?" (Morning Walk with Srila Prabhupada-- May 13, 1975, Perth)
Comment: What about the brahmanas within ISKCON? Will they also succumb to passing resolutions allowing the marrying of man to man and woman to woman?
This is the time to get more serious about never agreeing to approval of "gay monogamy," lest we disobey the instructions of Srila Prabhupada梘uru-avajna. It is a serious wake up call. Every member of the priestly class must object.
"Just like yesterday you told me the students are talking about homosex. That means tamo-guna, that the education-students, they are discussing about homosex. That means tamo-guna, lusty desires, very prominent, and how to fulfill, by homosex or sex with woman. This is their subject matter, kama. So everyone in this material world infected with this tamo-guna, all lusty desires, in various ways, varieties." (Morning Walk with Srila Prabhupada桵ay 11, 1975, Perth)
Comment: There is nothing religious about homosexuality. It is 100 percent irreligious, monogamous or otherwise. It would be beneficial if the topic of gay monogamy, gay marriage, or gay rights were permanently put to rest and never be uttered in any Vaisnava forum within ISKCON in the future.
"Oh, it is not to be uttered. Homosex." (Srila Prabhupada)
Title: Re: Concoctions about Shri Shri Gaura Gadadhara
User: Swami Gaurangapada Date: 2007-04-22 00:30:01
Q. Did Mahaprabhu have intimate, conjugal relations with Gadadhara, although he is Radha, he is also in a male body.
Answer by Swami Gaurangapada:
When Shri Gadadhara was with Lord Gauranga, he was helping the Lord to internally remember and relish Their pastimes of Shri Shri Radha Krishna in Vrindavana within His heart. Shri Shri Gaura Gadadhara were never physically re-enacting those pastimes again in Shri Gaura Lila even in any subtle manner. They were only internally relishing those Vraja pastimes by Naam Sankirtana in each other's presence. And They were not dancing with each other thinking Themselves as Shri Shri Radha Krishna but They were dancing with each other as devotees while remembering the sweetness of Their previous pastimes of Shri Shri Radha Krishna. So They both were absorbed in Their Vraja pastimes but They were never imposing those pastimes in Gaura Lila. They were just remembering and relishing the pastimes as Their own devotees. In Gauranga's pastimes, They always thought of each other as devotees of Shri Shri Radha Krishna and were relishing the Vrindavana Pastimes by Naam Sankirtana. There is absolutely no scent of any conjugal (or gay) love or attraction between Shri Shri Gaura Gadadhara. Those who say there is are committing a big mistake and offense to justify their own sinful thoughts and actions. The attraction between them was solely in the harmony of meditating on Their Vrindavana pastimes as devotees. And as devotees, They acted in an exemplary manner to show us how to be the best devotees, so even thinking that they had any kind of conjugal or gay relationships in Gaura Lila is the biggest unfavorable offense against Gaura Gadadhara Tattva which will throw us away from the mercy of Lord Gauranga Mahaprabhu for a very long time.
Thus, Shri Shri Gaura Gadadhara do not and never have a madhurya relationship with each other or with Their devotees who want to artificially imagine Them as conjugal lovers. They together remember and meditate on Their own pastimes as Shri Shri Radha Krishna through Sankirtana but never enact those pastimes in Gaura lila. To enact those pastimes They appear as Shri Shri Radha Krishna and not as Shri Shri Gaura Gadadhara. This is what Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada means when he writes: audaraye madhurya aprakata...in his Gaudiya Bhashya Introduction to Shri Chaitanya Bhagavata.
Madhurya rasa can only be reached in relation with Shri Shri Radha Krishna. Dasya rasa or the mood of servant is the highest mellow in the worship of Shri Shri Gaura Gadadhara or Shri Shri Nitai Gaura and it will grant us our mellow in the pastimes of Shri Shri Radha Krishna. It is also wrong to say that Gaura Nitai worship is in sakhya bhava and Gaura Gadadhara worship is in madhurya bhava as for us both the worship are in dasya bhava. Also Lord Nityananda who is in a sakhya (brotherly) relationship with Lord Gauranga can surely grant us madhurya bhava i.e. lover relationship in Shri Shri Radha Krishna's pastimes...hena nitai vine bhai radha krishna paite nai. I am sorry to know that nowadays the relationships and pastimes of Shri Shri Gaura Gadadhara may be misused to support some imaginary lover or gay theories. This has the potential to create dangerous doubts in the minds of the sadhakas and they may give up Gauranga bhajana or greatly displease the Lord due to such a concocted misunderstanding.
Shrila Vrindavana dasa Thakura has warned to stay miles away from this wrong and perverted philosophy of Gauranga Nagaris and not to even hear those concocted theories because they offensively imagine that Shri Shri Gaura Gadadhara exhibit conjugal love for each other in Gauranga's Pastimes and falsely claim that we can also connect to Them with the same conjugal love by imagining ourselves as Their conjugal lover.
Title: Re: Respect on a personal level
User: Swami Gaurangapada Date: 2007-04-22 23:49:22
Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krishna! Jaya Guru Parampara! Pranams! I just wanted to say that the above direct quotes from Shrimad Bhagavatam, Mahabharata and Shrila Prabhupada which have been posted about this topic are just for information. There was absolutely no intention to hurt the feelings of any devotees or group or persons on a personal level. We understand that the struggle against material desires is a hard one in Kali Yuga and can assume many forms, combinations and obstacles. These quotes talk about a mentality not about the people who have that mentality. The Scriptures and Acharyas never breed any kind of hatred towards any individual persons. In fact, it is due to their compassion to genuinely help others that they make these statements which are sometimes strong. We just wanted to make this issue clear because there was some kind of indirect superimposition of these mundane relationships which was maybe unknowingly seeming to appear in this connection in relation to the most holy and divine pastimes of Shri Shri Gaura Gadadhara. There was no other desire or intention of any kind of hate against or denigration of anyone at all.
We totally reject the "ex-gay myth" and others which breed hatred on a personal level towards those who follow this gay lifestyle and have no connection with it. We accept that souls struggling with any and all kinds of problems with their senses including heterosexuality, homosexuality etc. can chant the Holy Names of Nityananda, Gauranga and Hare Krishna and gradually aspire to follow the pure path laid down by our Acharyas. Struggling with the senses is this manner is not a disqualification to chant the Holy Names and worship the Lord because that is the only way by which we are eventually going to become fully purified in Gauranga Krishna consciousness. On the other hand, to understand the ideal goal which we are aiming for is always good for the sadhakas.
Every devotee is entitled to know the proper and the ideal philosophical understanding of the scriptures on the philosophical level and to choose whether to follow it or not. It has nothing to do with hate and violence on a personal level. Philosophical differences does not mean hate on a personal level. On a personal level, every soul who is trying to chant the Holy Names and perform Bhakti is respected. So by this topic, some scriptural information is provided so that the proper direction can be seen. There is absolutely no intention whatsoever to minimize the Chanting or Bhakti of any devotees or group of devotees on a personal level. We respect the sincere endeavors of all devotees in Gauranga Krishna consciousness. Thankyou.
Title: Re: Homosexuality rejected by Bhagavat, Mahabharat, Prabhupada
User: Anonymous Date: 2007-04-23 19:34:29
Dear Swami Gaurangapada,
Please accept my humble obeisances.
Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga jayatah!
Thank you for posting the clarification, "Respect on a personal level." This is the type of clarification I would expect from an important and revered Vaishnava leader. We have to be very careful about how we quote scripture. Presenting only the most negative statements against a particular class of people is not going to help anyone. It is necessary to encourage people to renounce sex life as far as possible, but this must be done in a positive and often gradual way.
Also, it is often helpful to concentrate on positive rather than negative methods of preaching. To counteract the negative quotes and articles I suggest you also post some of the positive ones--for instance, Srila Prabhupada positive quotes about the homosexual and transgender "eunuch" communites of India; his quotes about the importance of all-inclusiveness; the "eunuchs" that blessed Lord Caitanya at His divine birth ceremony; Maharaja Virata's example of graciously accepting the crossdressing Brihannala into his palace, etc. These examples, while not approving of homosexual behavior, teach us that we should nonetheless be kind toward those who are gender-variant.
Vaishnava das anudas,
Amara dasa (ACBSP)
Title: Re: Proper Understanding
User: Swami Gaurangapada Date: 2007-04-23 21:21:44
Nityananda! Gauranga! Hare Krishna! Jaya Shrila Prabhupada! Pranams. Thanks Amara dasa prabhu for kindly coming to the forum to reply to this topic.
Thank you for posting the clarification, "Respect on a personal level." This is the type of clarification I would expect from an important and revered Vaishnava leader.
Thanks for your kind understanding too. I have always felt the same all along about respecting devotees on a personal level whoever they are.
It is necessary to encourage people to renounce sex life as far as possible, but this must be done in a positive and often gradual way.
I agree that it has to be a gradual encouragement in the right direction but the right direction should be there. I am glad to know that you also feel that these desires should be renounced ultimately.
Srila Prabhupada positive quotes about the homosexual and transgender "eunuch" communites of India...
Personally, I have my own understanding and opinion about them atleast those of them who were directly present during the pastimes of Lord Krishna and Lord Gauranga. First of all we see that there are only a very few cases of such mention in the huge body of Vedic scriptures. The term "eunuch" has now become associated with the gay tendency and now some of them have become as kind of prostitutes for homosexual people. My understanding is that those who got a chance to be there in those pastimes were not like the ones we find now. There is a chance they may not have been involved in any kind of gross or subtle transgender sexual relations at all. They were known as napunsaka meaning basically no gender. This is my understanding and since scriptures don't talk too much about it, I don't have the scriptural pramana to back it up with and I don't want to force it upon anyone or anyone to accept it. I am expressing it since it was raised.
Even though Arjuna became Brihannala due to that curse from Urvashi, still he remained Arjuna, the great pure devotee of the Lord. So I don't think his behavior in this regard can be imitated because we are not on his platform. It is said in the Shrimad Bhagavatam that great personalities may sometimes perform unnatural actions but they should never be criticized or imitated. And besides that, we are not in that kind of unique and special position like Arjuna because we have not been cursed by anyone. I know that you are not talking about imitation but about dealings but I just wanted to explain my understanding in this regard.
These examples, while not approving of homosexual behavior, teach us that we should nonetheless be kind toward those who are gender-variant.
Thanks for making it clear that these examples don't approve of homosexual behavior. And I do understand what you are saying about kindness. Every soul has a right to perform Naam bhajana and Bhakti Yoga and external designations, limitations, shortcomings and weaknesses should not be considered in dealing with souls who are chanting the bonafide Holy Names of the Lord. I also accept that even though the scriptural quotes are very strong and straight, their practical application may be sometimes gradual and should be done with understanding, kindness and compassion and no soul should be minimized in any way. On the other hand, one who is in that position, also, should at least desire to make an attempt to rise above it, even though it may be gradual, as we can see from Shrila Prabhupada's compassionate instructions in that letter to Lalitananda dasa quoted above.
I will ask for your forgiveness that I do not want to discuss this issue further in any more detail on this forum as I have said all that I had to say in this regard. But I greatly appreciate that you took out your time to come and understand my last post and give us your association. I also very much understand the struggle devotees have to go through in these Kali Yuga times and it is better to positively keep on chanting deeply and remembering the Holy Names than to ponder too much over these external limitations and designations like you said. Nitaipada also feels the same. Thanks again and pranams to you.